The Good Therapist Is In
This podcast focuses on all things related to mental health, politics, policy, interventions and opinions. The podcast is hosted by a licensed therapist and business psychologist and will host other professionals in the field to discuss topics of the day, introduce new books, and grab opinions.
The Good Therapist Is In
Decoding Narcissism in Politics with Brenda Stephens
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Join Dr Kenneth Edwards as he welcomes Brenda Stephens, LPCC as the discussion focuses on the narcissistic qualities of “certain” politicians and the vibe of our politics right now. How do people recognize gaslighting behaviors? What are some of the coping mechanisms? What can listeners do to help themselves during this time.
Brenda Stephens, LPCC is a trauma informed counselor, speaker, educator, and owner of a group practice. Her clinical work focuses on complex trauma, relational trauma, and recovery from narcissistic abuse, and she is known for supporting survivors through counseling, psychoeducation, and support groups. Brenda integrates approaches including EMDR, somatic work, CBT, DBT, and is IFSI trained. She’s been in practice for about 16 years.
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The Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Center
Books
Recovering from Narcissistic Mothers
The Narcissism Recovery Workbook
The Good Therapist Is In with Dr. Kenneth Edwards.
SPEAKER_00All right. Hello and welcome to The Good Therapist Is In. This is the show where we get to talk about topical issues that face literally all of us, but with the lens of mental health, self-care, and the general space to just be. I'm Dr. Kenneth Edwards, licensed clinical professional counselor and work psychologist. I've got a lot of opinions about a lot of things, but we'll have guests on from time to time, and that'll give us some new perspectives. If you haven't liked, followed, and shared, or even memorized previous episodes, go ahead and do that now. Now, on today's show, we've got a really special guest. She's the author of Healing from Narcissistic Mothers and the Narcissism Recovery Workbook that's coming out soon. She's an expert on healing and recovering from narcissistic abuse and continues to move the conversation around narcissism in parents and relationships. Now, Brenda's got a really interesting background. Brenda Stevens, by the way. Welcome, Brenda.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no problem. So Brenda is a trauma-informed counselor, speaker, educator, and owner of a group practice called the Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Center here in California. She focuses on complex trauma, relational trauma, and recovery from narcissistic abuse. And she's known for supporting survivors through counseling, psychoeducation, and support groups. Brenda integrates approaches including EMDR, somatic work, CBT, DBT, and is IFSI trained. She's been in practice for about 16 years. I'm super excited to have her here. Thank you so much, Brenda.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you, Kenneth.
SPEAKER_00Wow, we have got some stuff to talk about. I mean, I I I wanted to have you here because I know that people have all heard, oh, that person is narcissistic, or they suffer from narcissism personality disorder. And many times people don't understand the full definition of it, what it means, how it applies, and and really what the textbook definition is. But we wanted to bring a little bit of a different spin to it and talk about it from a political lens. We've been watching the news. I don't know if you have, but yeah, yeah, understatement, right? Yes. But I wanted to get your take on our state of politics that we're in today as it applies to narcissism. But I've been talking too much. What are you thinking about?
SPEAKER_01That comes up a lot, actually. It comes up in the individual sessions. I also do I do two support groups every week. One for people who are contemplating or in the process of separation or divorce, and the other one is just a general support group for survivors of narcissistic abuse. And I actually, and I do, I usually have a class running. Um I have three different classes that I offer. So that's like three groups a week. Very different, well, somewhat different topics for each group. Same thing comes up though. So many people are triggered by what's going on on the larger scale, you know, throughout our country right now. I think it's amplified what they're feeling in their relationships. And I'm telling you, it has been, I do individual sessions too with clients in the early part of the week, and it has been heavy. And it just keeps getting heavier, you know. And I'm sure all therapists, all counselors are probably experiencing this right now. But in this population, uh, it's taking its toll.
SPEAKER_00Wow, I've I've seen the same thing in my own sessions with clients, is is they come in and they've been watching the news or or they're affected, their community is affected by what's happening just with the world events. I mean, how what are you what are you seeing?
SPEAKER_01I I think I'm seeing people overwhelmed and honestly quite hopeless. You know, I think the relationships, their personal relationships, you know, whether it's romance, whatever it is, friendships, romance, parents or narcissists, whatever it is, are difficult enough to navigate, you know, and I think it those relationships leave people very confused and I mean they lose their sense of who they are. I mean, it's such a it's such deep wounds. Then to have the behavior sort of normalized on a national scale brings, I think brings in a lot more self-doubt. There's already a lot, a lot of self-doubt for each individual person who's suffering with a narcissist. But scale it to country, countrywide, I think it it maybe validates for them that yes, they are the problem. And they are not the problem, right? They they are part of a system that in relation is is very difficult and abusive. And now we're getting it nationally. I try to be delicate about how I say it. All angles, right? Yes, all angles.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems like it comes from everywhere. And kind of what I'm hearing you say is because it's happening everywhere, you tend to feel, or I tend to feel, I I'll just speak for myself. I tend to feel like, wait, am I the problem? Am I the one who is just misperceiving this? Am I the one that can't deal with it? Am I so stressed out? So I imagine that's the same thing that happens for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly it. You know, and this is a population of people that already have a lot of self-doubt. You know, they're already worrying that they're the problem. And so many clients will come initially for help, worrying that they themselves are a narcissist. And this is, oh, I could go down a I could go down a path here, but you know, there's so much in social media about narcissism, and so much of it is incorrect. But what's happening is that the the narcissist in someone's life is also on social media. And once we say, hey, I think you've got some traits here that aren't really helpful for me in this relationship, they go and study and do their research, and oh, you're the narcissist, right? So now these folks that I'm working with, who generally speaking are not narcissistic, are coming in so worried that they're they are the problem, you know. And as you said, that's being reinforced perhaps in what they're focusing on on, you know, in the news or just in society. It's really a double whammy.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness. I mean, it's it's coming at them again from from every angle, and and they, I imagine, fall deeper into a hole of feeling blamed. And even if they're blaming themselves for what they're experiencing, and you know, we never actually did define narcissism. I know that people want to hear exactly okay, what is narcissism? What are we actually talking about?
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't have the DSM memorized for this, but I will tell you, I actually have, I don't know if this might be helpful to your listeners. I made a an assessment because my whole my whole gig is working with people who've been abused by narcissists. I have an assessment that kind of delineates like where you have been impacted, you know, and it's got some different sections, and I can offer that to any of your listeners if they want to reach out or I can give that to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we'll put it in the show notes. So we'll have it available. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it's it's insightful to see how the impact has affected you personally. And I know what to listen for. I've been doing this for so long now, and this is my whole clientele is all I'm survivors of narcissistic abuse. But there's just this pattern of chipping away at at who the per the non-narcissistic person is. So the abuser, the narcissistic person, they they want control and power over everything. But the hallmark of a narcissist is the lack of empathy, right? I mean, we know about selfishness and self-centered behavior and and things like that, but the lack of empathy is the big key factor. Doesn't mean they don't have any empathy, and I've done a ton of research on this too, like where empathy goes awry as they develop in in their you know lifespan. Even if they show some empathy, it's not typically the empathy that we think of when we think of empathy. It's some derived kind of distorted way of having empathy that they've developed over years. It's fascinating research on this, in my opinion, anyway.
SPEAKER_00I you know what I'm a nerd for all things therapy and counseling and psychology as well, too. So we'll we'll get together and we'll we'll nerd out on various definitions of empathy. That's a really interesting thing. So, really, what I'm hearing is that kind of a differentiator is the lack of empathy. And it's not no empathy, but it's empathy that just doesn't hit right.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't hit right. They know what empathy looks like. They in a narcissist, right? They uh they know the right things to say because they've seen it in movies and TV, and maybe they've even gone to therapy, but probably not for very long. But they've you know heard therapeutic language. Certainly they can hear it all over social media. So they know the right thing to say, but what they do is weaponize it. They weaponize all the therapeutic language, they weaponize what they know about empathy and how to kind of poke and push the right buttons for the people they're abusing, and then twist it. They twist it all around, and somehow then somebody's feeling sorry for them. And I know that sounds weird, but that is what happens. They they are the perpetual victim. So shut me up when you need to, because I could totally know a million years about this.
SPEAKER_00You know what I am thinking about though? So let's say if I came into your office and I said, you know what, Brenda, I my my friend told me this thing about myself that, yeah, I don't know, they were telling me, but what what does that empathy look like that you're describing? That kind of off empathy, what does that sound like?
SPEAKER_01It sounds like that a mismatch between words and action, I think, in a most clear picture, right? So they they may know the right things to say, but they don't really know how to say it. You know, they might say, Oh, I'm sorry you're feeling that way, and then insult you in the very next sentence, or you know, not take accountability for anything they've done, but say that they're sorry, which is a pretty very common thing with them, right? No accountability. But I I think it it's more of a felt sense, you know, when you when somebody says, I'm sorry, but you, blah, blah, blah. You know, you made me blah, blah, blah. That kind of thing. Exactly. It's so that's not empathy. You know, they know they can say sorry, but it never hits right for the person receiving the sorry. You know, it never feels like a sorry.
SPEAKER_00You know what I thought of another example. What's that thing when you apologize and someone might say, Oh, I'm sorry you took it that way?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00Versus, I'm sorry for what I did.
SPEAKER_01Very big difference in those two sorries, right? And that that is a super common thing to to hear. A narcissist is gonna say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm sorry you took it that way. Like you said, but they're they're not gonna say, Oh, wow, I I really hurt you, didn't I? I'm terribly sorry, and I'm gonna change. I'm not gonna do that again. That's not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00Good definition. Thank you for going into some some detail on that because that's gonna frame the next part of our discussion.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, we we talked earlier about you know, the onslaught of drama every day watching the news, constantly feeling hyper aware of everything, feeling on edge, and just that constant pressure and the sense of anxiety. Brenda, why are we feeling like this? Please tell me why we are feeling this way.
SPEAKER_01So many reasons, right? It's just scary, you know, a base level front, front facing, it's scary to be in such an unpredictable environment. We never know what's gonna happen next. And there's always kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop politically right now. And for people, survivors of narcissistic abuse, that's how they live, right? And my I'm trying to pull them all out of this. Like I'm trying to say, hey, you your nervous system can relax now, like you're not in the relationship anymore, you can be safe. Yet, you know, they leave the hour they have with me and hear all of this and they're right back in it, you know. So they're hyper-vigilant, they're they're nervous, they're worried all the time that they're doing something wrong. This is a hallmark of survivors. Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_00So much like I feel in the morning when I see see an in breaking news alert.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Exactly, yeah. There's there is this, you know, this waiting. It's the like I said earlier, I think that waiting for the other shoe to drop constantly. And I think survivors of narcissistic abuse live in that space, you know, and you as they're trying to work out of it, they can't get away from it because we're still constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop with every well, there's no like end to the news cycle anymore either, right? So it's just you never know what you're gonna wake up to right now.
SPEAKER_00So if we think about the never-ending news cycle and we think about the events that are happening in the world, we have certain world leaders that we won't name them here on The Good Therapist is End, but we all know who we're talking about. Uh, when we talk about a narcissistic leader, I mean, when you think about your work in this space and think about the leadership of possibly this country and other countries, whomever they may be, I mean, what do you think of some of those qualities that show up or those traits that show up even in in leadership? I mean, we we've talked about it from a relational, close relational standpoint, but what if what if they're leading a country?
SPEAKER_01Okay, let me put it this way every narcissist, every narcissist needs a lot of scaffolding around them. You know, they are so external. There is not much internal about a narcissist, if that makes sense. There isn't like a deep reflection that they do anything like that. So every narcissist needs scaffolding, which is why we have all these terms, flying monkeys, they have sources of supply, which is just other people who give them attention. And flying monkeys is, I don't know how common this terminology is outside of like my bubble, but it really is from the Wizard of Oz. You know, they they do the bidding like the flying monkeys did for the wicked witch, right? So it's these people that the narcissists have in their lives. All we're seeing, maybe in our country, is a higher level of that, like more powerful flying monkeys, lots and lots, lots and lots of sycophants, an abundance, lots of supply because there is a whole base that props this person up, right? That no matter what he does, they find an excuse for it, which is mind-boggling.
SPEAKER_00It's bonkers to watch. I mean, and it's like, don't believe what your eyes are, your lying eyes are telling you when you see exactly what's happening, but then you've got a group of people who are like, Oh, yeah, you didn't see that. They didn't say that thing. I'm like, but I just heard that person say that thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it oh my god, I have so many examples in my brain. A narcissist will go to any length to get attention, like perhaps getting shot at, right? I mean, there's nothing, nothing that they I think Allegedly, Brenda. Allegedly, yes, perhaps that may have happened. Um right, but there's just there's too there's no extent to which they won't go. You know, I mean try not to be too specific. Who fights with the I'm not a religious person. Who fights with the one of the most respected leaders in the world of religion? Like, how where does that stop? And how much, how big does that ego have to be? And which is a actually uh it's not actually what's happening here. There, the ego is actually very weak in a narcissist. But to go after these powerful people to make sure that he looks more powerful than or any narcissist looks more powerful than whomever they may be, more powerful than anyone around them. And I there's so many things that I see on the daily that is just oh, that's a trait, that's a trait, that's a trait. Things like calling one common insult across the board we see from certain leader, as a certain leader, is how stupid everybody else is, which tells me what is his biggest fear is being stupid. It it really is.
SPEAKER_00This is such an interesting So it's kind of a projection out that says, Oh, if I call you this, this is actually how I might feel about myself.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Okay, exactly. And that is very, very common. You know, when especially when a narcissist is raging and they're trying to insult the person in their life, of course, that's on a bigger scale. Those the insults, the accusations, everything that comes out is is like a confession. You know, it gives you so much information. It's hard to receive that, you know, in relation with a narcissist because you're hearing all this hurtful language to yourself. But if you get to a point in in your relationship with a narcissistic person where you can separate a little bit and hear what the accusations are, you're going to learn a whole bunch about what goes on in their inner world. And I think that's I think that's a gift in a way.
SPEAKER_00It is. I mean, you're able to then step back from what you're hearing and not internalize that as something that is a trait that you might have because it's really how do you how do you call it? It's a trait that they have, the person who's accusing you of of whatever it might be. But but Brenda, tell me this. What is the goal of this? Like, why do narcissists, you know, and dotted line over to narcissistic leaders or whomever it might be, why do they do this? Like, what's the point? What are they trying to get to?
SPEAKER_01So it's those, those, that scaffolding I was saying before. So all of these actions that they take take build the scaffolding of who they are because inside is hollow. There, there is no sense of self. And that's what I was saying about there the ego. It's not really the ego in the way that we think that they're confident and self-sufficient, or they have a lot of self-trust, or will have any of that for themselves. They have none of that. I firmly believe that the core emotion of any narcissist is an absolute abundance of shame. And they're trying to cover it up all the time and through these behaviors that we're seeing. And I know that may be, it may sound oversimplified, but it truly, that's what it is. We see it in a small scale on our one-to-one relationships. We're seeing it on a big scale governmentally right now. It's all to avoid feeling whatever shame that they may feel. Most narcissists go through these cycles where they're they're they're big and loud and boisterous. It not always. There's covert narcissism too. So it looks a little bit different, but they have these moments where they seem like they're functioning well and confidently on some level, but they all have a crash. They go through a collapse, you know, and it's where all of the scaffolding or pillars that hold them up are no longer working.
SPEAKER_00And they that's what's happening right now. We've noticed even in the last week or two, maybe as certain world events have progressed, you have d defectors that are saying, wait a minute, what's going on here? This doesn't seem like what we thought it was. But I'm but you know what I'm like, but we told you. So don't that's a whole other story. That's a whole other podcast, Brenda. I could go on about that too. But you have people who are dropping off in terms of they were loyal support. And we've and we could speak about this particular leader that we're not speaking of, or we could talk about anybody else when their scaffolding, I love the way you described it, starts to fall apart. It just starts to crack and and they start to notice it. And and based on what you're saying, as they notice the scaffolding fall apart, sometimes they're going into that crash right in that moment. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that is when they go. It that that is when they go into the crash, the collapse, you know, they collapse into shame. And it really can look like often looks like for average people who aren't leading countries, you know, laying in bed for a few days, that not speaking to anybody, staying in darkness, you know. When typically what we see from them is like, you know, a lot of outward external behavior because narcissists need everything to come from outside to them. So they need to be in interaction with other people. And I know your listeners might hear this and say, you know, that covert narcissist acts differently, and that's true. They're not, they're not extroverts like we would think most narcissists are, but they do the same things. Like they have maybe their one source of supply that's the most important to them, and they may be clinging to that really strongly when they're starting to feel the scaffolding fall, you know. And if they only have one source of supply or one reliable source of supply, those collapses probably happen more frequently. And maybe where the covert narcissism were like that vision, who knows which happened first, right? But there just isn't enough to hold them up.
SPEAKER_00I see. Yeah. Okay. So we we've learned what narcissism is, we've learned how that looks in that in the one-on-one relational sense. We kind of have an idea now of how it's showing up on the national stage and on the world stage. All of us are feeling just full. I know I am just full up as a therapist that I get to see people every day, as a friend, as as an association leader, and in another role that I that I serve. How do we start to separate from what is just absolutely bonkers in this world and set some boundaries and understand that it's it feels personal, but what it is, it's that projection that you talked about, that that leader, whomever that might be, or that person in our relationships that we have every day, that it's more of a read on them than it is on us. How do we how do we start to do that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's that's a big, a big project. But I think we really what we need to do is connect. I think connection is connection with help, healthy people that can be there for us or just hold space for us, whether it's your therapist, your best friend, it's somebody, join a book club, something, be around other people. I think being around positive energy is incredibly healing. The catch to that is that when we've been in a relationship with a narcissist, they isolate us. So our friendships fall off, and and we're we've not talked to somebody for years, you know, and we maybe don't have somebody to reach out to. But I think it's important to to find ways to connect with other people. And I often tell my clients, because here in San Diego we have a mall that's called University Town Center, it's in La Jolla, which is a nice area. I'm sure people have heard of that, right? Not to shop, right, but just to be, because it's a beautiful mall. It has a dog park, so you're gonna be around dogs, and there's not much better than that in my humble life. I agree, I agree, right? But you're just you know, people every time I go there anyway, you know, it's it's a lovely place to be. People are walking leisurely, you know, it's just not a hurried, frantic space. So if you have a place like that you can go, you know, if you're isolated and don't have people you can reach out to, be around people who are in a lovely place that are there leisurely. I mean, I think you can absorb some of that energy and that calmness in spaces like that. But I really do encourage people to find ways to connect. I have support groups for this reason because of the isolation, but I'm not the only one. I know there's a person, her name is Tracy Malone. She works with survivors of narcissistic abuse too, and I'm pretty sure she does quite a few support groups for different topics. But you know, if people Google and and just look for support, you can find it. And I've found in my support groups in the classes, I teach the people, build community together, you know, and I'm actually working on something now so that we have a space where we can all meet and support one another, and I can kind of monitor it just in case. But I think the community is fantastic, and I especially think it's fantastic because survivors of narcissistic abuse tell their story. They go to a therapist who doesn't really understand narcissism, and I think the therapist has the best of intentions. But the stories you hear from a survivor of narcissistic abuse might be like you can't be serious, or they must be exaggerating. And I promise you they're not. They are not exaggerating. What they go through is pure torture because it's so subversive. You know, it's so under the radar and so confusing. And I literally had on my website for the longest time this image of a person holding their hands around their head like this, because so many women, it was mostly women, coming to the practice going, I think I'm going crazy. You know, and I it this is the isolate isolated factor that, you know, they think there's something so wrong with them. So they need a therapist who gets it, who understands it, who believes what they say. Even if you're not a specialist in narcissistic abuse, just believe them. This is their experience, you know. So they do need a lot of support.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for saying that. I and and what I took from that is even in the last bit of what you said, that that feeling that, you know, as therapists, we we we're not allowed to use the word crazy, but sometimes it fits where you know you you walk into the office, or I have a client that walks in and says, I just feel like I'm crazy, like something is up, something doesn't feel right. I feel like I'm wrong in this situation. So I'm really happy that you were able to normalize that for people. And if anybody out there feels that same sense that Brenda explained here, this is where you go and seek out therapy, seek out a specialist as it comes to that. Brenda, the last thing that I wanted to mention was in your book, Healing, there were three lessons that I that I saw that were in one of the later chapters. And one of them was practicing and love, practicing loving and respecting yourself, yes, trusting yourself, and then focusing on the facts. If you could just give just a little bit about that as we start to wrap up here.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So unfortunately, when we've been in these relationships, we we do have a lot of, we start to blame ourselves. We start to hear the abuser's voice and words as our own in our head. And we need to really stop and say, wait a minute, that's not how I want to talk to myself, or that's not, those are not my words. And I think that's where self-love starts, in little tiny steps like that, where we're saying, wait, I deserve better than this, especially from myself, right? I don't need to be beating myself up. I'm already in this, in this space. I think we need to be mindful. I think we need to do mindful practices so we're staying present. And I know that also may sound like an oversimplification, but I do think that that's really important because this population tends to ruminate a lot. You know, we're trying to make sense of something that's never gonna make sense to us. We don't think that way. We think with empathy, and we're not gonna understand how their brain works, but we spend a lot of time going over and over and over. So I think we need to have practices that keep us in the present. And that can be really simple things like literally hugging a tree or literally touching grass or you know, whatever, whatever it is that brings you a little bit of peace. And then the I think there's some deeper work that needs to happen too to really recognize that you're not the problem, or recognize the parts of you with love and acceptance that allowed you to stay in this relationship or didn't let you know that you deserve better all along. And that's a real simple explanation. Of course, it takes some work to do all of that stuff, but there are lots and lots of things that people can do. I have a ton of resources on my website, narktrauma.com, that can be helpful. Oh, can I just say this too? Please on my website, I have what I call a trauma toolbox, and this is for when you're in those moments when I built it for my clients where when they're in their moments and they're feeling really scattered or just overwhelmed to go in there and there's some vagus nerve stimulus stimulation exercises, nervous system stimulation or calming exercises. And I even have a couple of videos there just so you have a human talking, no video of a human talking to you. Um, but it that's for everybody, everyone can go use that. So you just having kind of that that plan, I guess, you know, a plan of how you're gonna take care of yourself when you start to feel overwhelmed. Doing that ahead of time, I think is really important and very helpful.
SPEAKER_00You know, I I love that you have this tool available and it's at Narc Trauma N A R C Trauma.com. Yes. That's where people can, I assume, reach you through your website. Yep. Um consultation or or therapy or counseling or support groups. I love the idea of this toolbox. Brenda, I'm gonna make one suggestion to add to the toolbox. Certainly. If there is a tool that people can do after a day of watching the news, that's a very good idea. You know, some kind of quick relaxation tool that allows them to just like you said earlier, find a way to connect to something that's not the day-to-day that's just happening in the world. And, you know, part of that is is hopefully they're in a safe place to be able to do that because there are a lot of people right now who aren't in just a safe, physically safe place or emotionally safe place, but some kind of tool that would help them. But even our conversation today, people can take so many, so many things from it. So I appreciate you being here. And and I don't know if you had any final thoughts, but I I just love to get to work with you and get a chance to chat with you. This has been great.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thanks, Kenneth. And the feeling is mutual. I just adore you. Thank you for inviting me. And please, yeah, I just want everyone to know that there is support out there. There's so many books out there right now. But the thing I would say the most important, don't go, don't do the deep dives on social media that are telling you what a narcissist is. It's good to know, it's good to learn that, but maybe focus on the ones that are talking about healing because we can learn and learn and learn about narcissistic behavior. In the end, it doesn't matter. They're not going to change. The ultimate goal is to have strong boundaries with them or no contact, right? Focus on yourself, focus on how you can heal from this.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love the tips, and you can get healing from narcissistic mothers on Amazon and wherever you purchase your books. And then the narcissism recovery workbook is coming out when? Brenda? It's out. It's available.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, perfect. So that's out too. So remember narc trauma.com.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And Brenda, thank you. Thank you again for being here. And thank you, everybody, for listening to another episode of The Good Therapist is in.
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